wp1488 wrote:….
All that aside, the argument itself takes an unnecessary leap by declaring that the designer is the god of your choice when there’s no reason to jump to that conclusion.
beempty wrote:
Lol…what??
The irony of this line of reasoning is that the grains of sand, the water, etc. ARE just like the watch! The watch might be the MOST intricately designed thing in the scenario, but when you break the grains of sand and the water down to the molecular level, design is so apparent that saying otherwise is absurd.
Do you know why we don’t have a “non-designed” thing to compare the designed things to? Because everything was designed!
It has nothing to do with the “appearance” of being designed (although by default it does appear to be so). It has everything to do with the fact that based on everything we know about design mechanics, the watch de facto MUST BE designed. It is impossible for it not to be.
It is actually the logic of the person who says “just look, the universe is clearly not designed” that is flawed. If the Watchmaker apologists look at the watch and say, “compared to literally every single thing we can see that has been designed, this watch too has been clearly designed,” the Watchmaker detractors say, “no, just because this APPEARS to be designed doesn’t mean it HAS to be.” Not only is it counter-intuitive to common sense, it lacks supporting evidence.
Name me something as intricately designed as a watch that came to being by accident. You are not allowed to say, ” the universe” either. Use something that has been proven to have come about that appears to have design that was actually not designed.
Dahlsim wrote:
+1
Another way you could say this beempty is that things that ARE designed also APPEAR to be designed.
It *could* be that they just “APPEAR” to be designed but it also *could* be because they ARE designed, ergo appearing to be designed is NOT an argument against actually being designed.
In fact appearing to be designed may not be in and of itself absolute “proof” of design but it is one strong indication that something IS in fact designed.
In my earlier analogy the computer on the distant planet Appears to be designed therefore according to the “watchmaker debunkers” it is NOT designed. Huh? 
Doh, maybe it appears to be designed because it IS designed? Maybe?
Add to the appearance of design other factors such as practical functioning, e.g. the letters display on the screen, or the eyes do indeed process the light waves, the ears do process the sound waves etc.
Add also clear logical purpose, a thing is design TO DO something which we can easily rationalize and see.
The Holy Spirit by the Apostle Paul is simply saying it should be clear to any honest rational thinker that a thing with these qualities, let alone a universe of full of these things, IS without question a result of design.
You don’t have to believe in the Bible to acknowledge that an argument is rational.
Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
